Yup

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jon88

Are humans and plants not made up of the same thing? Atoms. Your brain is made of physical stuff, and physical stuff must follow physical rules. For every single event, there is only one outcome because it is impossible for two outcomes to exist from a single event. How would one be chosen over the other in terms of physically happening? To me that's like saying 1+1=3, you should haven gotten 2, but out of nowhere came 3. And if random things like that can occur, how then does the Universe maintain any order? You throw a football at the ground, and it just randomly decides to float off to space?



Say I give you a choice, "Pepsi or Coke". Say you 'chose' Coke. What I would then ask you is why did you chose Coke? For every answer you give me, another why would follow. Until eventually we either reach the absolute reason for why you chose Coke over Pepsi, or you just say, "Stop asking why, I chose Coke and that's final". The latter is a sign of not completely knowing or just unwillingness to pursue why and one just concludes it was a choice. But if we were to continue asking why all the way down to the sub-atomic world (and possibly even further), there I believe we will find the real reasons for why we make said choices and realize they are nothing more than moments in time when the apple was going to fall from the tree...

I don't see how an apple falling from a tree is comparable to humans making a decision, and you're ranting off about other things trying to prove that correct.

Everything is made of atoms, but also atoms can make up different things that work differently...CAN an apple CHOOSE to fall from a tree or not?

CAN you yourself choose to jump off a tree or not?

Also, if you keep asking "Why" to a question I answer'd truthfully and you are not satisfied...then that is not my problem. You don't understand the answer and that would be your own problem.


Talking on the phone and responding to this isn't exactly the best thing...sorry if I don't explain much.

[Yvgeniy]

Originally Posted by Odin5

Chew toy:

You consciously are not making the decision to go left or right, your subconscious is. Everything you do is determined about 10 seconds ahead of time before it actually reaches your conscious state.

Problem being, you are looking at it from a large scale, I am looking at it from a small scale.

You're separating yourself from the subconscious in this case, but are those two actually two different things? What IS you and what IS a subconscious? Isn't it essentially the same thing, but simply categorizes different states/processes/decisions of your brain? Obviously there is no clear answer, but this just goes to show you that what you've proposed is a mere theory dependent upon certain rules and assumed facts.

I've debated free will quite a few times, and at this point I've come to the conclusion that even the definition of "free will" isn't clear enough to give a clear answer. Too many contradictions. I can go more in depth to explain what I mean if you'd like.

[Jon88]

Originally Posted by Colby

You have to look at this from an outside viewpoint. Lets say for a moment you are outside of time observing the course of someones life. You can see the decisions they will make, and the results of each, now you've seen the result of the decision they have made in our current reality that ends with death, however you can also see what the effect would be of other decisions as well, and although in this reality I may have chosen to go left, in another reality I may have chosen to go right. It isn't all part of one and the same, it's a different reality created by that appearance of a choice to be made.

I made this chart to clarify, you and I and the rest of the world are represented by the green box, we only see the effects of reality A. However, we cannot see outside of this reality, and if there is a reality B, then there is free will. We choose what reality to live in with every breath we take. In this reality, I may always choose to walk left, but in another I may always choose to walk right and which I live in depends all on my choice alone.

The problem of what actually makes you chose differently remains. What... spark or something changes the way "you" act?

Originally Posted by slingblader

You could argue that that too is predetermined, but that's somewhat excessive. That follows the same path of simply being unable to truly answer why you won't look at it one way or another. You might say that it's so because it's predetermined, I'd say it's so because you have that option to think as you please.

That is essentially what it boils down to, in terms of an argument. My only real question is how can a choice physically happen? What process takes place in the brain from a single event which could possibly have two equally possible outcomes, and what exactly is the deciding factor? And does that factor not void the possibly of "free-will"? Perhaps I am taking it a bit to the extreme; I mean for every event that happens I can say it was meant to happen after the fact, while someone else could say it was a choice, neither of us being able to prove the other wrong. And I admit in my day to day life I perceive things as my own choices. But when I sit down and think about it, I can't think of how a choice can actually happen, physically.

Or perhaps I have misunderstood the meaning of choice and free-will...

If everything was so set in stone, I think humans would be a lot farther into knowledge of the world. It's GOING to happen, so why can't we figure it all out? A scan of a child's brain could conceivably contain the future if that were the case.

Not only would one require the scan of the child's brain, but also the surrounding environment. That of course would essentially require someone to "know" the state of the entire Universe, which is impossible for something within the Universe. So yes, my "theory" doesn't really have a point, except when used in discussing eternal damnation xD Though I would say we can become better and that we already have at predicting things and how people act, etc.

Originally Posted by Ghos7Soldier

I don't see how an apple falling from a tree is comparable to humans making a decision, and you're ranting off about other things trying to prove that correct.

Forgive me, but I am rather new to arguing... what some call determinism. The comparison I am trying to make requires you to take away "human making a decision", and turn it in to, "human reacting", just as an apple with a weak twig reacts to a greater force of gravity causing it to fall... Say I asked why you wrote this sentence exactly the way it is. What would be your reasons?

CAN an apple CHOOSE to fall from a tree or not?
CAN you yourself choose to jump off a tree or not?

Honestly, when I think about it enough, I'd say neither made a choice.

[Colby]

Originally Posted by Jon88

The problem of what actually makes you chose differently remains. What... spark or something changes the way "you" act?

There has to be a spark? The moment the choice even arises the separate realities would be created, then both would continue on in both directions unaware of each other. So what I'm saying is, basically, we always choose all, we go in all directions it's just that each direction is ignorant of the other.

[StarStarMoon]

Imagining the Tenth Dimension - A Book by Rob Bryanton

[slingblader]

I don't think there is a true determining factor, assuming we're applying a blanket non-situational example. But at the same time, that doesn't happen. Ever. What influences the decision? experiences, reality, pre-conceived outcomes. if I see my goal, im going the direction it's in. If I know that it's more likely right leads to where I want to go geographically, I'll go that way. If I truly have no clue? I'll lean towards the side that works out for me more often.


Side note. I think I've got a bit of an experiment for this, though it will be far from conclusive of anything. Take several groups of people, all reasonably large and present them with a non-situational choice of left or right. If it's true that it's all pre-determined on the large, more religious scale, there should in theory be little correlation between the groups. All of them have had their choices made, and unless there is some natural reason for a percentage to do one thing, it would be random. Any correlations or patterns would be slightly leaning toward the idea of a natural pre-inclination, or lack of.

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jon88

Forgive me, but I am rather new to arguing... what some call determinism. The comparison I am trying to make requires you to take away "human making a decision", and turn it in to, "human reacting", just as an apple with a weak twig reacts to a greater force of gravity causing it to fall... Say I asked why you wrote this sentence exactly the way it is. What would be your reasons?
The reason I wrote the sentence was to respond to your argument, I had a choice to either not touch it or respond. Yes, even simple arguments can hold choices in them.
New to arguing aye?


Honestly, when I think about it enough, I'd say neither made a choice.
That can be taken different ways but, the apple can't choose whether or not it wants to fall, also they fall when the grow to be heavy enough as to where the stem can not hold onto them. And of course, a human won't jump off a tree because the reaction that would happen would make them end up in pain. Unless they love to feel that feeling of excitement then they would jump of course...unless they are bored. Many things can make them choose differently.

Did this in red...I try new things everyday.

[Colby]

Originally Posted by StarStarMoon

Imagining the Tenth Dimension - A Book by Rob Bryanton

Yeah, that's something I'm drawing from. The idea of alternate dimensions, like what he was talking about with the time line.

[Odin5]

Point proven:

I can take things out of context and twist words, and people will STILL argue over it as if it's valid (Then proceed to careen right off the side of the cliff that was 'The argument')

[Yvgeniy]

Originally Posted by Odin5

Point proven:

I can take things out of context and twist words, and people will STILL argue over it as if it's valid (Then proceed to careen right off the side of the cliff that was 'The argument')

Well hey, I'll argue about anything. I mean, I don't know about you, but I just simply enjoy a good argument no matter what the topic or its validity. It's just a matter of assuming something and going from a certain perspective. Think of it as a battle of logic.

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Odin5

Point proven:

I can take things out of context and twist words, and people will STILL argue over it as if it's valid (Then proceed to careen right off the side of the cliff that was 'The argument')

..........You don't stop do you?

Persistence is something you have I guess.

[Odin5]

Originally Posted by Ghos7Soldier

..........You don't stop do you?

Persistence is something you have I guess.

I am persistantly persistant.

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Odin5

I am persistantly persistant.

Eh........yeah ok.

[Colby]

Odin5 doesn't care though.