Yup

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by slingblader

A decision inherently decided for you, by YOU, doesn't suggest a lack of free will for me. Human's can over come subconscious desires, and acute pressures are usually not so much on an emotional or even thoughtful plane, solely a survival one. That's nothing more than a reflex, which I wouldn't say is a lack of free will. It's your bodies natural decision to insure safety. Do these instincts supersede "normal thought," yah, but is your body saving itself, and subsequently your mind and conscious thoughts really a lack of free will?

Said it before me.


Basically, no....what the subconscious mind does, does NOT "nullify" free will seeing as we still choices that we make.

The many choices you make is the way free will work, not because your body is telling you to "need" something to survive.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by slingblader

A decision inherently decided for you, by YOU, doesn't suggest a lack of free will for me. Human's can over come subconscious desires, and acute pressures are usually not so much on an emotional or even thoughtful plane, solely a survival one. That's nothing more than a reflex, which I wouldn't say is a lack of free will. It's your bodies natural decision to insure safety. Do these instincts supersede "normal thought," yah, but is your body saving itself, and subsequently your mind and conscious thoughts really a lack of free will?

Overcoming your subconscious is something else entirely. I was simply saying that your subconscious is not governed by free will. It's not possible. Your actions as a result of subconscious urges can be altered, but never the subconscious itself.

Also a point I think this thread is lacking is that genetics are really what govern who you are and what you do. In the nature vs nurture debate, nature technically wins because at the root of every reaction to said "nurture" there is a genetic code that alters your decision making. For instance, taking two different people and having them live exactly the same life will always result in differences. Sometimes those differences will be big and some small, but they will not become the same person. They could even look exactly the same and they would still not make every choice in life the same as the other.

And you might say to me "But I can decide right now whether I want to post this or not". Well it's at the genetic level that you developed the way you did due to the circumstances occuring in your life which crafted you into the person you are today: The person who would feel it necessary to respond to my post instead of silently agreeing or disagreeing. Something as simple as choosing cola or sprite can eventually root to genetics, where you developed this way or that way to become the person you are now at this moment who has completed these events in life and gotten to this point in time where, somehow, you were in the mood for sprite instead of cola.

So yeah, if you consider all of the above, you really don't have any free will, unless of course you dismiss the fact that genetics factors into your "Decision making" in life.

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Paul

So yeah, if you consider all of the above, you really don't have any free will, unless of course you dismiss the fact that genetics factors into your "Decision making" in life.

I have still yet see how the term "Free will" being used as making decisions can simply be shot down because of what decisions that are made from your "subconscious" mind even though you still have the freedom to "choose" anything you want at any time if you choose to do so.

So in anycase if you say it like that...

Define free will or what you would deem free will to be.

[Atlakai]

YOU THINK of doing something, brain sends signal to the body part, the body part performs.

/thread.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Ghos7Soldier

I have still yet see how the term "Free will" being used as making decisions can simply be shot down because of what decisions that are made from your "subconscious" mind even though you still have the freedom to "choose" anything you want at any time if you choose to do so.

So in anycase if you say it like that...

Define free will or what you would deem free will to be.

Your choices are governed by your subconscious desires. Example: A boy wants a soda. Subconsciously, he enjoys pepsi more than coke. The boy chooses pepsi. We take the same boy and we say that he looks up to his father very much. His father enjoys coke more than pepsi. Subconsciously, the boy still desires pepsi more than coke because the taste in itself satisfies him more than coke. However, his subliminal desire to be like his father whom he looks up to so much is greater than this subliminal love for the taste of pepsi. In this case, he chooses coke. We take this same boy and say that he has neutral feelings towards his father, and lacks a subconscious desire to be more like his father. He chooses pepsi this time. Of course these decisions are influenced by many things, including how frequently he has chosen which cola and how much a new taste would appeal to him, how thirsty he is, what ads he's seen in the media lately, how many of his friends drink which, etc etc. These elements can all affect your decision subconsciously, but it's a matter of spotting and adding them up.

Anyway, despite all this, I don't see how my information reguarding genetics is even debatable. Assuming there is no counter argument on the matter of genetics, I believe that point is pretty much a debate ender, reguardless of consciousness or subconsciousness.

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Paul

(one sec)

Anyway, despite all this, I don't see how my information reguarding genetics is even debatable. Assuming there is no counter argument on the matter of genetics, I believe that point is pretty much a debate ender, reguardless of consciousness or subconsciousness.

But the matter I'm talking about is "free will" and apparently how or why does your "subconscious mind" nullify free will in which a sense free will would be based of decisions to can make.


I'm just asking for someone to show me how it nullifies free will.

I have yet to see how the subconscious mind does this seeing as we can still make our own choices whether it be conscious or subconscious that does it.

I see free will as being able to make your own choices. And seeing as I have any choice to do whatever I want at the moment...I don't see any argument/debate in the first place.

That's just me anyways.

[Paul]

I edited my above post. Got distracted by something else for a while, forgot to finish writing it. Anyway, I see no reason to knitpick at the subconscious when the debate is cut off at the very root. However, I think I did give you a pretty good idea of where I'm coming from.

[Colby]

Originally Posted by Odin5

Bet you didn't know that there is a certain area of our brain that cooresponds to motor activities that already makes up its decision about whatever it wants to do approximately 10 seconds before you consciously do it, thereby, truly nullifying the "Free will" conundrum (As now, we technically are not "free willed")

Ha ha ha...Serious Discussion; you always make me laugh.

Free will depends on if you believe there is a linear future or multiple futures (in fact infinite futures) I happen to think that whatever decision you make, no matter how minuscule it is changes the course of history and the time stream splits in two deviated from that decision.

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Paul

I edited my above post. Got distracted by something else for a while, forgot to finish writing it. Anyway, I see no reason to knitpick at the subconscious when the debate is cut off at the very root. However, I think I did give you a pretty good idea of where I'm coming from.

I still have yet to get an answer as to how "free will" is used then if it's not because of the choices we can make ourselves.

The debate can't be cut off because of mere choices that were made by the subconscious.

If it's telling us to do something in order to survive then that's a given, we need to survive in order to live, just because the subconscious mind tells you to do something 10 seconds before you do it in order to achieve a need your body is "needing" then regarding the main argument..

Originally Posted by Odin5

Bet you didn't know that there is a certain area of our brain that cooresponds to motor activities that already makes up its decision about whatever it wants to do approximately 10 seconds before you consciously do it, thereby, truly nullifying the "Free will" conundrum (As now, we technically are not "free willed")

Ha ha ha...Serious Discussion; you always make me laugh.

No, it doesn't "truly nullifying the "free will" conundrum".

Genetics and the way we are raised have to do with who we are and what we do, but that hasn't stopped anyone from choosing otherwise than what the body wants.

Originally Posted by Paul

Your choices are governed by your subconscious desires. Example: A boy wants a soda. Subconsciously, he enjoys pepsi more than coke. The boy chooses pepsi. We take the same boy and we say that he looks up to his father very much. His father enjoys coke more than pepsi. Subconsciously, the boy still desires pepsi more than coke because the taste in itself satisfies him more than coke. However, his subliminal desire to be like his father whom he looks up to so much is greater than this subliminal love for the taste of pepsi. In this case, he chooses coke. We take this same boy and say that he has neutral feelings towards his father, and lacks a subconscious desire to be more like his father. He chooses pepsi this time. Of course these decisions are influenced by many things, including how frequently he has chosen which cola and how much a new taste would appeal to him, how thirsty he is, what ads he's seen in the media lately, how many of his friends drink which, etc etc. These elements can all affect your decision subconsciously, but it's a matter of spotting and adding them up.

It's a matter of preference for taste or a matter of wanting to be like your father if that's the case if you truly desire going against what you prefer to drink.

A boy wants a soda. Subconsciously, he enjoys pepsi more than coke.

This is because he prefers taste of pepsi more and enjoys it, yes you've said this I know.

His father enjoys coke more than pepsi. Subconsciously, the boy still desires pepsi more than coke because the taste in itself satisfies him more than coke. However, his subliminal desire to be like his father whom he looks up to so much is greater than this subliminal love for the taste of pepsi.

Basically his father makes huge impacts on the childs life and the child looks to be like his father disregarding his tastes or preferences, he still has the freedom to choose pepsi at any time which doesn't negate free will or being controlled by your subconscious mind.


You keep giving examples of things you've already explained and I have yet to see how that answers my question in any case.

If it can't be answered to the best of your ability or if I just can't see what you're trying to say then tell me.

....

Originally Posted by Paul

So yeah, if you consider all of the above, you really don't have any free will, unless of course you dismiss the fact that genetics factors into your "Decision making" in life.

Originally Posted by Ghos7Soldier

I'm just asking for someone to show me how it nullifies free will.

I have yet to see how the subconscious mind does this seeing as we can still make our own choices whether it be conscious or subconscious that does it.

I see free will as being able to make your own choices. And seeing as I have any choice to do whatever I want at the moment...I don't see any argument/debate in the first place.

If we didn't have free will, then we wouldn't have as much as we do now these days.

That's how I see it.


Of course, I'm a firm believer in the term "Free".

[Jon88]

Free-will is merely an illusion created by ignorance.

Do apples choose to fall from trees?

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Jon88

Free-will is merely an illusion created by ignorance.

Do apples choose to fall from trees?

I don't know, you tell us.

[Dakantos]

Example: Dakantos loves Cherry coke. It's his favorite. He gets it all the time. All the time he gets cherry coke. Dakantos goes to the store. He sees fountain pop for 40cents! Dakantos is about to get cherry coke, and has his finger on the button. Then he remembers his Girlfriend is coming over, and she loves mountain dew. Dakantos stares at the machine for a long time, finally deciding to get mountain dew.


The above example is based on true events. I stared at the machine for 2 whole minutes. debating.( I have the Hu-mug-ous from Kum and Go. Its ****ing huge) You can't tell me there was anything subconscious about it.


Another example. I hate cleaning. I utterly Loathe cleaning.

I will do anything but clean. I'll do nothing, and sit for an entire hour, when i could clean everything in 15 minutes.

that's just the way I am.

Here's the thing though. My girlfriend is coming over. I know I need to clean. I get up, and move over to my pile of dishes in the sink. I spend a moment staring at them and think, "I really ought to do these dishes." I turn the water on. and then turn it back off, going into the other room to screw around.

I look at the clock and think "My girlfriend is coming over in like, 20 minutes...." I stare at the clock. torn between " to clean, or not to clean?"

Finally I tear myself away from the computer and do the dishes.

So basically, to put it how you described it.

When I was born, I was predetermined to hate cleaning. At the moment I was born my brain decided I was going to wail, and then decided that once I wailed, I was going to breathe, and that after breathing I was going to sleep, and that after sleeping I was going to wake up at 3:41 and 59 seconds pm. Then it determined that..........................<- rest of my life here.........


Then from there it determined I should wake up, which would make me want to roll off the bed, which would then bring me to the sink, which would then cause me to turn on my water, and then subsequently turn it off, and then that would cause me to go to my computer, which then caused me to space out, which then caused me to look at my clock, which then caused me to enter a mental debate whether or not to clean(which takes around 3 minutes to decide mind you) which then caused me to go to my sink, which then caused another debate, which then caused me to do the dishes( which only took 5 minutes) which then caused me to come back to the computer, which then caused me to read this thread, which then caused me to consider everything i've done today, which then caused me to post this.


And so that one wail predetermined my entire life's existence. Fascinating.



My point is, I take time to actually think about most things before I do them. Even something stupidly simple. Do I think about breathing? No. It's subconscious. Can I stop breathing anytime I want to? Damn straight. Just because something can be determined/governed by your subconscious doesn't mean you HAVE to do it. It may mean you have a natural inclination to do said action, but it doesn't mean its going to happen.

[Paul]

Honestly, it's a confusing concept to grasp and I don't have the time nor patience to explain it any better than I already have. I've answered your questions a few times now, and I'm not sure what else you want to be honest, nor do I care enough to reword the same thing another time.

However, the sarcasm involving the affect of miniscuel things in a person's life on major parts of their life is unnecessary and unimaginative in my opinion. Yes, one wail from a child can alter the course of many things. It could distract a single mother raising said child from what she is doing, and she looks down and misses catching the eye of a friend from high school who's passing by in a store. Now if the mother had caught the eye of that friend she might have chatted with her and gotten her phone number, caught up on old times, hung out together and eventually she might have met a guy that she really likes through said friend, married him, and there's a life altering event right there from a single wail. And hey that's just one wail. One action. There are a lot of things that happen over the course of a single day for most people. You have to just accept that life is complex, but it can definitely be broken down into pieces the way I'm suggesting. And yeah I know life altering events and altering the choice between a pepsi and a coke are two different things, but it's clear to me that if a life altering event can occur from a child's wail, many other actions can affect the development of a child, and severely alter their "decision making" later on in life. Really think about it and break down the affects of genetics on a person and you'll see that you can trace your genetics to be the cause of a line of events(with the help of outside variables beyond a person's control like their upbringing for instance), and you'll see that every decision can be rooted back to development, a stage entirely out of a person's hands.

If you still don't get it then hey, whatever. That was my last shot(on the subject of the impact of genetics).

As far as your bit on subconscious, Dakantos, I don't think you have a good understanding of what is subconscious and what is not subconscious, and where one turns into conscious thought.

[Ghos7Soldier]

Originally Posted by Paul

Honestly, it's a confusing concept to grasp and I don't have the time nor patience to explain it any better than I already have. I've answered your questions a few times now, and I'm not sure what else you want to be honest, nor do I care enough to reword the same thing another time.

I have yet to see anything different than what you've said throughout your other posts.
And my question in general was "How can it nullify free will?" in the first place, what examples you gave didn't directly answer my question, you keep giving exmaples and things that can alter changing decisions which just means the person has the will to make decisions which..well...making decisions of your own thought and mind, being able to make choices of your own no matter the deal would mean free will right?

Originally Posted by Paul

If you still don't get it then hey, whatever. That was my last shot(on the subject of the impact of genetics).

I probably never will seeing as I have my own thoughts about it.

If you don't have the patience then that's fine well and good.

The only think you've said, or that I understand so far, in general though is that if we're trying to fight genetics about making decisisons from the subconscious mind even though we can still make decisions, we really don't have any free will.


Which is technically a mind **** in whole.


Nvm, forget I mentioned anything from the above deleted post.

[Paul]

My last post came off as a bit assy actually. Sorry for that, didn't mean to sound condescending.