Gladiator Styles Philosophy

[R3volution]

Throughout the game of Gunz there are many styles. Predominantly when using guns, the one with the greatest amount of accurate shots will win. So most styles are based upon shooting quickly and aiming precisely while trying to avoid shots fired by an opponent at the same time. People do this through the use of such moves as Reload shot, Reload Slash Shot, Reload Half Step, Reload Quarter Step, as well as some moves revolving around Forbidden step. As such, one may justifiably call the predominant guns style "spamming". This is the first style I will discuss in reference to gladiator fighting.

The essence of the spam fighting style when it comes to gladiator is to Butterfly and Groundslash (depending on the experience one has in gladiator one may or may not groundslash) and basically overwhelm an opponent who has gotten too close to your offense. This tactic of "slash and hope your opponent walks into your useless attacking of air" may work against less experienced players in the gladiator arena, however in a chess game as well as in a gladiator match, a strong offense is easily countered by a strong defense. Turtling (which is another style that I will cover later on) is a very effective tactic against a spammer, though depending on the ping of a spammer, some high pings may just slash through your block even if they Butterfly directly at your block without phasing. However, when one incorporates timed attacks to counter a spammer's very predictable movement along with blocking (not necessarily with the intent of recoiling) said predicable attacks, the spamming fighting style ceases to be effective in the gladiator arena. As such, similar movements that one uses in a gun fight will be ineffective in a gladiator match.

A further installation in the spamming fighting style would be a style known as Monk style. I am sure most of us are familiar with the cheesy "Gate" names that Monk style moves are known by. The reason I have included Monk style in the category of a separate style is somewhat simple and somewhat complex at the same time. The controversy between M Style and K style can be solved simply by an analysis of the moves involved between the two. K style takes advantage of animation cancellations to speed up ones movements (using block or weapon change to cancel a slash animation). M style takes advantage of animation freezes instead of animation cancellations. As such the moves can be classified differently from the moves that are used under K style.

Use of M style in a gladiator fight, again, may win against inexperienced players, however because M style is such an attack oriented style, the biggest flaw M style has is the inability it has to control massives. Give an M styler a massive, and he is most likely going to throw it, giving an easy opportunity to get in at least 2 hits if not more in a trap on an M styler. As such M style is utterly useless in a match against an experienced gladiator.

From this point on, I will be speaking only of styles that are used only in gladiator matches.

First off, I find it necessary to break down styles into its most essential aspects. Those aspects are present in all styles. They are the ability to walk, dash, slash, and block (assuming one uses a sword or kodachi). The use of these different options in different ways are the basis for any style. The reason I did not include the flipping ability in the list of essential aspects is twofold. The first reason is that not all styles incorporate flipping. Flipping is thus a secondary option, not an essential one. (If you respond to this post, please let it be known that you have read my entire essay by including "***" at the end of your post). The second reason is that walk, dash, slash, and block are all an end in themselves. either to avoid an attack, or to deal damage. Flipping is not an end. It is a means to an end. Flipping has no purpose other than removing an opponents ability to guard from attacks. One must then use one or more essential aspects after flipping in order to deal damage. This reason is the reason I also did not include jumping in the list of essential aspects. As such, this is the reason that many gladiators prefer (or demand in 1 versus 1) a ban on flips. It is simply a means. Unnecessary. A style that revolves around flipping is indeed not a style at all as it's main focus is not on the essential aspects of gladiator styles (sorry klikkerzz).

So to move on to the first style. Circling is the most common style that you will see in a gladiator match against inexperienced players. This style revolves around using sideways Butterfly or Double Butterfly to break through an opponents defense with one strike and thus leaving them open to attack from another sideways Butterfly. An experienced Circler will trap an opponent after removing their defenses. Circling is considered to be a style with negative connotations attached. The reason for this is because the style relies completely on the lag factor to not be recoiled by an opponents block when attacking. Thus, as with flipping, the essential aspects of a style are lessened. So the only reason I include circling in my list of styles is simply because most circlers will not rely solely on circling. Though I have much reluctance in speaking of it in this post.

Turtling, many people say, is not a style. This can not be farther from the truth. Turtling is indeed a style of fighting as it focuses on the essential aspects (as long as one does not rely mostly on massives) Turtling is the perfect counter for the way many people fight. However, only when used properly. The only problem with this style is that it leaves too many openings and is much too predictable for the experienced player. Turtling alone will not win. It may be a style, but it is not a good style.

As I'm now bored, I'm going to skip to the final style that I was planning on discussing. The credit for creating the stalk style is mostly given to Cerb3rus. The basis of stalk is to take advantage of an opponents mistakes. More experienced stalkers will create more opportunities for an opponent to make a mistake through unpredictability such as jumping at certain moments to make an opponent think that you are going to Butterfly one way or another. Thus they will react hastily, and gives you an opportunity to hit your opponent when they are not expecting it. As such, this style (as far as my analysis goes) uses the essential aspects of a style to their greatest potential in comparison to the other more common styles. As such, this style's focus is mostly on the best time to use the essential aspects to defeat an opponent.

The conclusion of this post is aparently that not only does gladiator take more thought and skill than any guns fight, but the the epitome of what is considered the most skillful in any gladiator fight depends on the essential aspects (and only the essential aspects) and how they are used in a fight.

[Chained]

i think the effort was wasted...

[R3volution]

probably. whatever. i'm hoping people actually reading this will finally stop with the stupid "this isnt a style, this is a style" bull crap

[An Amateur]

Originally Posted by R3volution

probably. whatever. i'm hoping people actually reading this will finally stop with the stupid "this isnt a style, this is a style" bull crap

Thats allready been battled out considerably and I think at least some peoples minds have been changed here on gunzfactor. Just search for "Styles and you"

I read or skimmed your whole post:
"***"

I think your wrong to exclude flipping and jumping simply because they are "a means to an end and not an end in themselves. Jumping can pretty much be included with dashing and walking as an evasive move although often combined with dashing it is still the same principle. Similar with flipping.

Also most gladiator 1 vs 1 do not demand a ban on flipping because its a means and unessasry, they do so because they are scrubs and deam it "noob".

Simply because a means leeds indirectly to an end rather than directly to an end does not mean it is unessasry or not useful.

[Ad4M l uK]

20% luck.

[R3volution]

Originally Posted by An Amateur

I think your wrong to exclude flipping and jumping simply because they are "a means to an end and not an end in themselves. Jumping can pretty much be included with dashing and walking as an evasive move although often combined with dashing it is still the same principle. Similar with flipping.

Means do not directly provide a desired outcome. as such, a style based strictly on means instead of on an end would ultimately fail unless accompanied by an end. Therefor the end is obviously more important than the means. This is why styles are based on an end instead of on the means.

On the subject of jumping, in a gladiator match jumping is too slow to be used effectively as an evasive maneuver. Its only use is as a means to Butterfly, Double Butterfly, unpredictability etc...

Also most gladiator 1 vs 1 do not demand a ban on flipping because its a means and unessasry, they do so because they are scrubs and deam it "noob".

Why would they deem it noob? Cerb3rus was the one who developed flips and is almost zealously against flipping now. Deviok is strictly against flips as well. They can both easily win with or without flips, yet they prefer the later. Thus there is obviously more reason beyond being "scrubs".

Simply because a means leeds indirectly to an end rather than directly to an end does not mean it is unessasry or not useful.

That may or may not be true. the general point you are making however, is moot as they cannot be considered a style. Again, what is "essential" in a style is what makes it a style, both logically and by definition of essence. Because flipping is not an essential aspect as shown through my two reasons, it cannot be considered part of a style.

anything having any moves relating to K-style is K-style..

anything having any moves relating to D-style is D-style..

Anything having any Moves relating to E-style is E-style

I presume this is the post that you were referring to. If you read my entire post you will see that most of what I state goes directly against this idea. K-style, D-style, and E-style are nothing but the name of a catagory certain moves fall under. According to my essay, they way you use those moves is a style, not the fact that you are using them.

[Ad4M l uK]

Sword is fun !

[Eos]

Originally Posted by R3volution

Throughout the game of Gunz there are many styles. Predominantly when using guns, the one with the greatest amount of accurate shots will win. So most styles are based upon shooting quickly and aiming precisely while trying to avoid shots fired by an opponent at the same time. People do this through the use of such moves as Reload shot, Reload Slash Shot, Reload Half Step, Reload Quarter Step, as well as some moves revolving around Forbidden step. As such, one may justifiably call the predominant guns style "spamming". This is the first style I will discuss in reference to gladiator fighting.

The essence of the spam fighting style when it comes to gladiator is to Butterfly and Groundslash (depending on the experience one has in gladiator one may or may not groundslash) and basically overwhelm an opponent who has gotten too close to your offense. This tactic of "slash and hope your opponent walks into your useless attacking of air" may work against less experienced players in the gladiator arena, however in a chess game as well as in a gladiator match, a strong offense is easily countered by a strong defense. Turtling (which is another style that I will cover later on) is a very effective tactic against a spammer, though depending on the ping of a spammer, some high pings may just slash through your block even if they Butterfly directly at your block without phasing. However, when one incorporates timed attacks to counter a spammer's very predictable movement along with blocking (not necessarily with the intent of recoiling) said predicable attacks, the spamming fighting style ceases to be effective in the gladiator arena. As such, similar movements that one uses in a gun fight will be ineffective in a gladiator match.

A further installation in the spamming fighting style would be a style known as Monk style. I am sure most of us are familiar with the cheesy "Gate" names that Monk style moves are known by. The reason I have included Monk style in the category of a separate style is somewhat simple and somewhat complex at the same time. The controversy between M Style and K style can be solved simply by an analysis of the moves involved between the two. K style takes advantage of animation cancellations to speed up ones movements (using block or weapon change to cancel a slash animation). M style takes advantage of animation freezes instead of animation cancellations. As such the moves can be classified differently from the moves that are used under K style.

Use of M style in a gladiator fight, again, may win against inexperienced players, however because M style is such an attack oriented style, the biggest flaw M style has is the inability it has to control massives. Give an M styler a massive, and he is most likely going to throw it, giving an easy opportunity to get in at least 2 hits if not more in a trap on an M styler. As such M style is utterly useless in a match against an experienced gladiator.

From this point on, I will be speaking only of styles that are used only in gladiator matches.

First off, I find it necessary to break down styles into its most essential aspects. Those aspects are present in all styles. They are the ability to walk, dash, slash, and block (assuming one uses a sword or kodachi). The use of these different options in different ways are the basis for any style. The reason I did not include the flipping ability in the list of essential aspects is twofold. The first reason is that not all styles incorporate flipping. Flipping is thus a secondary option, not an essential one. (If you respond to this post, please let it be known that you have read my entire essay by including "***" at the end of your post). The second reason is that walk, dash, slash, and block are all an end in themselves. either to avoid an attack, or to deal damage. Flipping is not an end. It is a means to an end. Flipping has no purpose other than removing an opponents ability to guard from attacks. One must then use one or more essential aspects after flipping in order to deal damage. This reason is the reason I also did not include jumping in the list of essential aspects. As such, this is the reason that many gladiators prefer (or demand in 1 versus 1) a ban on flips. It is simply a means. Unnecessary. A style that revolves around flipping is indeed not a style at all as it's main focus is not on the essential aspects of gladiator styles (sorry klikkerzz).

So to move on to the first style. Circling is the most common style that you will see in a gladiator match against inexperienced players. This style revolves around using sideways Butterfly or Double Butterfly to break through an opponents defense with one strike and thus leaving them open to attack from another sideways Butterfly. An experienced Circler will trap an opponent after removing their defenses. Circling is considered to be a style with negative connotations attached. The reason for this is because the style relies completely on the lag factor to not be recoiled by an opponents block when attacking. Thus, as with flipping, the essential aspects of a style are lessened. So the only reason I include circling in my list of styles is simply because most circlers will not rely solely on circling. Though I have much reluctance in speaking of it in this post.

Turtling, many people say, is not a style. This can not be farther from the truth. Turtling is indeed a style of fighting as it focuses on the essential aspects (as long as one does not rely mostly on massives) Turtling is the perfect counter for the way many people fight. However, only when used properly. The only problem with this style is that it leaves too many openings and is much too predictable for the experienced player. Turtling alone will not win. It may be a style, but it is not a good style.

As I'm now bored, I'm going to skip to the final style that I was planning on discussing. The credit for creating the stalk style is mostly given to Cerb3rus. The basis of stalk is to take advantage of an opponents mistakes. More experienced stalkers will create more opportunities for an opponent to make a mistake through unpredictability such as jumping at certain moments to make an opponent think that you are going to Butterfly one way or another. Thus they will react hastily, and gives you an opportunity to hit your opponent when they are not expecting it. As such, this style (as far as my analysis goes) uses the essential aspects of a style to their greatest potential in comparison to the other more common styles. As such, this style's focus is mostly on the best time to use the essential aspects to defeat an opponent.

The conclusion of this post is aparently that not only does gladiator take more thought and skill than any guns fight, but the the epitome of what is considered the most skillful in any gladiator fight depends on the essential aspects (and only the essential aspects) and how they are used in a fight.

Too long, didn't read.

[Heidenreich8]

Originally Posted by Ad4M l uK

Sword is fun !

That, and....



DIDN'T READ IT LULZ.

[An Amateur]

Originally Posted by R3volution

Means do not directly provide a desired outcome. as such, a style based strictly on means instead of on an end would ultimately fail unless accompanied by an end. Therefor the end is obviously more important than the means. This is why styles are based on an end instead of on the means.

On the subject of jumping, in a gladiator match jumping is too slow to be used effectively as an evasive maneuver. Its only use is as a means to Butterfly, Double Butterfly, unpredictability etc...

That may or may not be true. the general point you are making however, is moot as they cannot be considered a style. Again, what is "essential" in a style is what makes it a style, both logically and by definition of essence. Because flipping is not an essential aspect as shown through my two reasons, it cannot be considered part of a style.

How are you defining a style? To me a style suggest a particular way of playing rather than any specific set of moves, or any one move. Using that as a definition flipping or jumping could be a part of that style. butterfly and dbfly etc are examples where jumping are integrated into a move that makes up a style of play, same with juggles and instas.

Why would they deem it noob? Cerb3rus was the one who developed flips and is almost zealously against flipping now. Deviok is strictly against flips as well. They can both easily win with or without flips, yet they prefer the later. Thus there is obviously more reason beyond being "scrubs".

I used the word "most" deliberatly. I was refering to the majority of people who whine about it because its powerful when made into insta/juggles, these are usually the same people who get killed by it.A scrub is someone who does not play to win, if c3rb or anyone else is in a situation where the one thing they could do to make a come back in a fight and win was to flip and chain it, and they still refused to use it they would technically be a scrub regardless of how good they are. If they deem anyone who uses it a "noob" they would also qualify as a scrub. However I also believe in there cases there are other more complex reasons not to use it.

I presume this is the post that you were referring to. If you read my entire post you will see that most of what I state goes directly against this idea. K-style, D-style, and E-style are nothing but the name of a catagory certain moves fall under. According to my essay, they way you use those moves is a style, not the fact that you are using them.

That was the thread I was reffering to however the wrong post, have a skim through some of the other posts and you will see the argument that k-style and d-style etc are methods and that there are other styles that more truely fit the original english meaning of the word, personal styles, styles of play, etc.

[R3volution]

Originally Posted by An Amateur

How are you defining a style? To me a style suggest a particular way of playing rather than any specific set of moves, or any one move. Using that as a definition flipping or jumping could be a part of that style. butterfly and dbfly etc are examples where jumping are integrated into a move that makes up a style of play, same with juggles and instas.

First off, I find it necessary to break down styles into its most essential aspects. Those aspects are present in all styles. They are the ability to walk, dash, slash, and block (assuming one uses a sword or kodachi). The use of these different options in different ways are the basis for any style.

thus a style is defined as a way of playing with a focus of importance on the essential aspects. For a more real life example, if you paint your nails, then does the paint become part of the nail? No. It becomes paint on a nail. This is because the essence of what a nail is does not include paint. If you paint a car, does the paint become part of the car? No. A car is still a car with or without a paint job. Essence is what defines a noun.

[Enshoku]

inb4hymnepicpost

EDIT: on topic.. I'll say something I guess.
I don't really know the point of this post -.- There are like 30 threads about sword styles... mostly all made by hymn. The only thing that needs to be said... if what you do in a glad fight kills the other opponent, regardless of "style" or whether people deem it "cheap", then do it. People get stuck on this whole style BS, and they attempt to use moves and make rules according to that style... which ultimately makes them lose. After you learn the basics of sword -BF, DBF, the massives, blocks, and (most important imo) angles etc- You can use/do anything to kill you opponent before they kill you, doesn't matter if it's pretty or if all you do is flip whore. The reason people ***** is because they cannot defend against a persons actions, or those actions don't agree with their "style".

tl;dr 'Styles' are for scrubs.

[Hotshot]

Originally Posted by Enshoku

inb4hymnepicpost

EDIT: on topic.. I'll say something I guess.
I don't really know the point of this post -.- There are like 30 threads about sword styles... mostly all made by hymn. The only thing that needs to be said... if what you do in a glad fight kills the other opponent, regardless of "style" or whether people deem it "cheap", then do it. People get stuck on this whole style BS, and they attempt to use moves and make rules according to that style... which ultimately makes them lose. After you learn the basics of sword -BF, DBF, the massives, blocks, and (most important imo) angles etc- You can use/do anything to kill you opponent before they kill you, doesn't matter if it's pretty or if all you do is flip whore. The reason people ***** is because they cannot defend against a persons actions, or those actions don't agree with their "style".

tl;dr 'Styles' are for scrubs.

i lol at this hahahahh u b!tch when i kept on flipping or something and u got mad as hell hahah xD

[Enshoku]

Originally Posted by Hotshot

i lol at this hahahahh u b!tch when i kept on flipping or something and u got mad as hell hahah xD

That was only because I was in a bad mood at the time and you were on vent, easy to yell at.

[An Amateur]

Originally Posted by R3volution

thus a style is defined as a way of playing with a focus of importance on the essential aspects. For a more real life example, if you paint your nails, then does the paint become part of the nail? No. It becomes paint on a nail. This is because the essence of what a nail is does not include paint. If you paint a car, does the paint become part of the car? No. A car is still a car with or without a paint job. Essence is what defines a noun.

I see. If the intent of this thread was to break away from the whole "k-style and d-style are the only styles" attitude then arn't you defeating yourself by simply redefining what a style is in gunz the same way people attempted to with d-stlye and k-style?

The whole argument against d-style and k-style being recognised as the only styles is that they are methods, you are just talking about methods in a broader way. Actual styles are wide and varried and the term can be used fairly loosely to apply to different ways of playing or doing anything else for that matter.

I echo some of what Enshoku said, and thats why I told you to search for "styles and you".