The walrus and the carpenter, via Dogma

[Soule]

I'm sure you have all seen Alice in Wonderland, or read the book "Through the Looking Glass." If you are, you have probably heard the poem "The Walrus and the Carpenter" by Lewis Carroll.

you dont have to read the poem if you dont wish to.

Originally Posted by Lewis Carrol

The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright—
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.

The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done—
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"

The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying over head—
There were no birds to fly.

The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it WOULD be grand!"

"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year,
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.

"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."

The eldest Oyster looked at him.
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head—
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.

But four young oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat—
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.

Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more—
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.

The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
Of cabbages—-and kings—
And why the sea is boiling hot—
And whether pigs have wings."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.

"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed—
Now if you're ready Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."

"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue,
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said
"Do you admire the view?

"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf—
I've had to ask you twice!"

"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"

"I weep for you," the Walrus said.
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size.
Holding his pocket handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.

"O Oysters," said the Carpenter.
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?"
But answer came there none—
And that was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.

Now I find this poem to be rather intersting. In the movie "Dogma" which you may or may not have seen, the poem is described as a critique of religion. The walrus, with his rather bulbous build and his tusks could represent the Buddha, or Krishna (i think) of easern religions, and the carpenter representing the Western Jesus.

In the poem, the pair find themselves in the company of some oysters (who represent the masses). The two convince the oysters to follow them, wherever this odd pair are going. After a while, the group takes a break, durringn which the Walrus and the Carpenter procede to shuck and devour the oysters.

What do you think of this symbolism, as well as the Disney corporation's decision to commit the poem to fame by including it in the famous disney film "Alice in Wonderland'. Do you think the poem may be comparable to the book "Howl", the controvercial book that inspired the beatnik movement.

just a note, i do not want this thread to go off on a tangent about how there was a penis on the little mermaid box, or how genie says to take off yoru clothes, etc. Please stay on the topic of the poem, and its interpretation.

[Soule]

im not sure if its ok to post again, but there is something worth pointing out about the disney version of the poem. if you notice, in the movie, the carpenter does not eat any oysters, which i assume is the disney corporation trying to get acrossed that christianity does not lead people astray while other religions do. however, in the origional poem, as shown here, it specifically says "they had eaten every one". They instead of he.

[Colby]

Well, I suppose only Lewis Carrol would be the only one who knows for sure, but I would say you are right, maybe that suggests she was atheistic or agnostic?

[Ashlyed]

Disney did slip a hidden message for every of their movies, such as the word "Sex" in The Lion King at the scene where Simba and his father almost get stomped by a pack of Bison or the red hair of Ariel in Little Mermaid (it symbol a -something- goddess )

Those symbolism... A mere coincidence or just a bad sense of humor of the artists.