The story of religion

[Ailysa]

This thread has been remade (with permission from dASH - After recieving my first infraction ever [I've been a member since 03-31-2006], due to a misunderstanding) [QUOTE: "STM1993 Doesn't get it"]

Anyway, here is the remade thread, with added bits to clarify my contention.
_______________________


"PLEASE DON'T READ THIS. You will get kissed on the nearest possible Friday by the love of your life. Tomorrow will be the best day of your life. However, if you don't post this comment to at least 3 videos, you will die within 2 days. Copy and paste this, to be saved"

The story of religion

Many religions have been known to gather adherents by presenting them with an appealing offer, but at the same time, telling the proposed adherent that if they do not accept the religion, they will be subjected to a terrible fate.

ie. The Christian religion tells its adherents that one must accept Jesus as the messiah to get to heaven, however if the adherent refuses Jesus, they will go to hell. The chain letter in this scenario can be reflected through the common displays of door-knocking.

I’m sure there are many religions (mainly universal religions, but others as well) that follow these well known methods to “spread the truth.”


Discuss.

[STM1993]

Hey, sorry about the accidental infraction, when I saw the thread I just didn't understand what the topic was about at first because it wasn't very clear. No I did not report, I simply posted and wanted some clarification. Really sorry man =/ Now I understand.


On topic:
Ya I agree that most religions does convert some people using this way. It's like the first paragraph of your post:

"PLEASE DON'T READ THIS. You will get kissed on the nearest possible Friday by the love of your life. Tomorrow will be the best day of your life. However, if you don't post this comment to at least 3 videos, you will die within 2 days. Copy and paste this, to be saved"

They tell us that we should do something in order to avoid another event. In fact, that's the base for some of the believers' reason to believe, which, I believe, is a very weak base unless it is supported by other factors.

But of course, not all religions practice the same thing, but even if the religion does practice this, there are cases where people convert because they saw some kind of benefit rather than avoiding a curse. Buddhists don't threaten you to go and believe what they preach, they give a completely free choice.

Christianity kinda follows the system you described ; either you believe and be able to go to heaven, or not and face the eternal punishment in hell. However, I know some Christians who mainly believe because they experienced some kind of stuff that turned them to believe strongly in their religion.

I don't really like this kind of system for its more like a threat than a free choice, but in the end, it is still up to the person to choose whether this is an empty threat, a curse that they should avoid or believe that there are better reasons to believe.

[manofsparrow]

There's that issue of doing this to children...

I've heard that some families disown their children for having a different religion (Some Amish communities do this, but apparently, it's only after you get baptized. I'm not too sure.). Some parents punish their children for it. I've heard of one that uses physical punishment (In the US anyways). Some Middle Eastern Muslim areas have a pretty bad reputation.

This also carries over to other kind of beliefs, like Soviet Russia stuff.

[shintenzu]

Yawn... like I havn't heard this before...

Dont worry neither I or most Christians will be bothering to knock at your door to accept the faith cuz we simply have better uses of our time... Like playing or egoing on gunz for instance...

Christianity was never supposed to be taught as "accept Jesus or burn in hell", it was supposed to be "Accept Jesus so you can be with him after you die". Hell was only mentioned 1 or 2 times by Jesus and it was in a parable. Some of the early churchs began to use the method of Damnation preaching to attract followers but Paul wrote a harsh letter to them telling them that this was NOT what Christianity was about. Now some crack pot Christians are still using the method that was condemned in the very same bible they are preaching out of and it sickens me.

The only reason a Christian preaches what he or she does is because they truely care... I used to attempt to share my faith every chance I got, I never was overbearing I never tried to use fear I just wanted to tell what I believed. Over time I have just given up because I get called "bible basher" just for mentioning what I believe and they act as if I shove it down their throat. If I wanted to shove a bible down your throat I'd do it just because it would be a pretty interestin/ironic way to kill a person dontcha think? We say what we do because we care, but honestly I've stopped giving a sh1t... If someone wants to know i'll tell them but I aint wasting any extra effort to convincing anyone anymore...

This is how we feel. If you believe you really know the truth and attempt to tell someone but you dont have any fully concrete proof towards your truth only very convincing evidence... Then they spit in your face when you try to share it cuz a handful of morons made the message a bad experience for them, eventually you dont care anymore. Im sure galileo felt the same way when no one would believe him when he said the earth was round and NOT the center of the universe. Despite his evidence, he simply could not prove it.

Sooo write more threads about how crappy and manipulative religion is, continue to call all of us oppressers cuz thats all you ever see on the media anyways. Continue to overgeneralize, dont care, just felt lke setting things straight. Not as if it made any difference as I probably tl;dr 'ed and the only examples of Christians you will ever notice i the few crackpots that make it to the news.

Note: There has been thousands upon thousands of children Christian camps through the years and centuries but guess which one made it to the media? Jesus camp: One of the worst examples of a Christian camp you could think of, yet it is the only one that you will ever hear about. THAT is the gimick you fall for, and I pity you for being so easily influenced.

[An Amateur]

@ shintenzu

Your raise some good points and what you say about the media is true. It's not a personal thing though its something media commonly does over a topic. I can't let you have it all your own way though. The crusades are an example of what Ailysa is talking about in the extreme sense and they were important in establishing christianity.

In todays society I don't believe that christianity, or any of the mainstream religions, need to do this, nor do I think most of them do. I'd also say that to my knowledge this is a rather old fashioned view, mainly of christianity. In particular many of the religions that hold there roots in the east, budism, taoism, even hinduism (although i may be wrong on that one, im ignorant), do not suffer from this.

Christianities organisation does not always work in its favour. Many of the less central organised religions from the east(again) do not suffer from the same conflicts that christianity does in trying to find harmony with areas of science and non-believers etc.

[manofsparrow]

Originally Posted by shintenzu

Yawn... like I havn't heard this before...

Dont worry neither I or most Christians will be bothering to knock at your door to accept the faith cuz we simply have better uses of our time... Like playing or egoing on gunz for instance...

This thread wasn't only refering to Christianity...

You know, this part would of gone better if you said something like

"We won't bother wasting time to knock on our door to accept our faith cuz we have better uses of our time... Like helping the needy/Helping those that are suffering"

Christianity was never supposed to be taught as "accept Jesus or burn in hell", it was supposed to be "Accept Jesus so you can be with him after you die". Hell was only mentioned 1 or 2 times by Jesus and it was in a parable.

Only once or twice?
I checked up several sources. Some say he talks more about Hell than Heaven, others say he didn't.

But they all say that he talks about Hell more than "1 or 2 times".

Some of the early churchs began to use the method of Damnation preaching to attract followers but Paul wrote a harsh letter to them telling them that this was NOT what Christianity was about. Now some crack pot Christians are still using the method that was condemned in the very same bible they are preaching out of and it sickens me.

There's not that much of a difference between preaching Heaven or preaching Hell.

God: Worship me and my son, or burn forever.
God: Worship me and my son, and you'll live happily forever.

King Bob: If you don't do what I say, I'll kill you.
King Bob: If you do what I say, I'll give you more power.

Both ways are effective methods for converting people, especially children.

The only reason a Christian preaches what he or she does is because they truely care... I used to attempt to share my faith every chance I got, I never was overbearing I never tried to use fear I just wanted to tell what I believed.

That might be the reason why you preach, but I'm sure there are other reasons. I can't really make any good guesses because I'm not a mind reader.

Anyways, preaching is one of the easiest ways to 'help' people.
Helping people physically... is a little harder.

Look at Jesus, he preached a lot, but he also fed starving people and tried bringing peace. He should of done more with the power he had, but it was better than nothing.

There are also many Christian charities out there. They probably preach some stuff, but at least they're also helping people. I'm not sure how well charities spend their money.

This is how we feel. If you believe you really know the truth and attempt to tell someone but you dont have any fully concrete proof towards your truth only very convincing evidence... Then they spit in your face when you try to share it cuz a handful of morons made the message a bad experience for them, eventually you dont care anymore. Im sure galileo felt the same way when no one would believe him when he said the earth was round and NOT the center of the universe. Despite his evidence, he simply could not prove it.

Except you don't have convincing evidence.

Sooo write more threads about how crappy and manipulative religion is, continue to call all of us oppressers cuz thats all you ever see on the media anyways. Continue to overgeneralize, dont care, just felt lke setting things straight. Not as if it made any difference as I probably tl;dr 'ed and the only examples of Christians you will ever notice i the few crackpots that make it to the news.

tl;dr'ed?
This thread is generally talking about religion in general, and how it can manipulate people.

This is what I think the thread was trying to say

Most Modern Religions: Follow a bunch of rules, do some required stuff, get rewards. Attach a punishment if you fail.

Note: There has been thousands upon thousands of children Christian camps through the years and centuries but guess which one made it to the media? Jesus camp: One of the worst examples of a Christian camp you could think of, yet it is the only one that you will ever hear about. THAT is the gimick you fall for, and I pity you for being so easily influenced.

Never heard of that camp.

[imasero]

I agree religion shouldn't be pushed, it should be a choice someone makes on what they believe is right or wrong. In my opinion I'm not Christian. I wear a cross on my neck but not because I'm Christian but because of two reasons: 1) I wear it to honor my people who died 94 years ago wearing this symbol on their neck dieing for what they believe in, 2) Because it was a gift from my father who I love so much before he past away.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by shintenzu

Christianity was never supposed to be taught as "accept Jesus or burn in hell", it was supposed to be "Accept Jesus so you can be with him after you die". Hell was only mentioned 1 or 2 times by Jesus and it was in a parable. Some of the early churchs began to use the letter to them telling them that this was NOT what Christianity was about. Now some crack pot Christians are still using the method that was condemned in the very same bible they are preaching out of and it sickens me.

So are you saying that people who do not accept Jesus will not burn in hell? Because if that's not what you're saying, I don't think it matters how many times it was mentioned or who preaches it. And if you're saying that we will not burn in hell for not accepting Jesus, could you point out where the bible corrects itself?

Originally Posted by shintenzu

The only reason a Christian preaches what he or she does is because they truely care... I used to attempt to share my faith every chance I got, I never was overbearing I never tried to use fear I just wanted to tell what I believed. Over time I have just given up because I get called "bible basher" just for mentioning what I believe and they act as if I shove it down their throat. If I wanted to shove a bible down your throat I'd do it just because it would be a pretty interestin/ironic way to kill a person dontcha think? We say what we do because we care, but honestly I've stopped giving a sh1t... If someone wants to know i'll tell them but I aint wasting any extra effort to convincing anyone anymore...

Okay, so you stopped telling people your beliefs and why you believe it because they always called you a bible thumper and whatnot. Well what do you think happens to an atheist who shares his belief with christians? Do you think the situation is that one-sided?

Originally Posted by shintenzu

This is how we feel. If you believe you really know the truth and attempt to tell someone but you dont have any fully concrete proof towards your truth only very convincing evidence... Then they spit in your face when you try to share it cuz a handful of morons made the message a bad experience for them, eventually you dont care anymore. Im sure galileo felt the same way when no one would believe him when he said the earth was round and NOT the center of the universe. Despite his evidence, he simply could not prove it.

This isn't like Galileo at all(who, ironically, was heavily opressed by the church). Galileo had groundbreaking evidence and discoveries. Theories that made sense, with facts to back them up. The most Christians have these days is "Just believe". Hardly a worthy of being mentioned in the same breath.

I mean, and to claim that Christianity is in any way being mistreated is a bolllld ****ing statement. Christianity has caused MILLIONS upon millions of deaths throughout history. How many christians are treated that way because they believe in a God? And I know, I know, the response is always "The acts of one christian don't stand for every one of them". Okay well that's one hundred percent true. But there are an awful lot of ****ed up people in the history of this religion. We're not talking about one man, we're talking abuot a good bit of history here.

[Colby]

I think Hell is a place for Satan Worshipers and those who KNOW he exists and reject him. Basically those who hold scorn for him, or don't want him or w/e. Not like Paul or Atheists who just don't know.

[Ailysa]

Originally Posted by manofsparrow

This thread wasn't only refering to Christianity...

Exactly. I'm talking about all religions in general. Christianity was just an example. It is better to use the majority as an example, than the minority, otherwise one would claim the other of racism, though in many cases, that may be true - but that's besides the point.

Originally Posted by shintenzu

The only reason a Christian preaches what he or she does is because they truely care... I used to attempt to share my faith every chance I got, I never was overbearing I never tried to use fear I just wanted to tell what I believed. Over time I have just given up because I get called "bible basher" just for mentioning what I believe and they act as if I shove it down their throat. If I wanted to shove a bible down your throat I'd do it just because it would be a pretty interestin/ironic way to kill a person dontcha think? We say what we do because we care, but honestly I've stopped giving a sh1t... If someone wants to know i'll tell them but I aint wasting any extra effort to convincing anyone anymore...

This is how we feel. If you believe you really know the truth and attempt to tell someone but you dont have any fully concrete proof towards your truth only very convincing evidence... Then they spit in your face when you try to share it cuz a handful of morons made the message a bad experience for them, eventually you dont care anymore. Im sure galileo felt the same way when no one would believe him when he said the earth was round and NOT the center of the universe. Despite his evidence, he simply could not prove it.

I am not from America, so I have not had doorknockers at my house. However, I have experiences of Christians truly fearing for our lives and declaring that we should covert, rather then die in hell. I have known people that have converted, truly for the purpose of a ticket to heaven and away from hell.

People who have rejected your thoughts have a right to. They do not need others telling them otherwise or to threaten the validity of their own religion.

But above all, I am NOT attacking any religion whatsoever. I am talking about religions in general. I raised the concept that many religions use this method. Even Buddhism (Who someone mentioned before) uses this technique. You must follow the middle path, for fear of being reincarnated on a lower position in the samsara and for the goal of Nirvana.

In fact, I cannot think of a single religion that does not tell an individual that they should do something to be rewarded and if they do not do another thing, they will be punished.

Originally Posted by shintenzu

Sooo write more threads about how crappy and manipulative religion is, continue to call all of us oppressers cuz thats all you ever see on the media anyways. Continue to overgeneralize, dont care, just felt lke setting things straight. Not as if it made any difference as I probably tl;dr 'ed and the only examples of Christians you will ever notice i the few crackpots that make it to the news.

I have NEVER seen Christians been "oppressesd" or attacked in the Media. Christians are the majority... the opppressors, as far as I have seen - but the intention of this thread is not to degrade specific religions right now.

ie. - Do you understand what that means?
It refers to "that is" or "for example;" as I emphasize again, my contention is that religions in general use this approach.

Originally Posted by manofsparrow

This is what I think the thread was trying to say

Most Modern Religions: Follow a bunch of rules, do some required stuff, get rewards. Attach a punishment if you fail.

You hit the nail right on the head!

Originally Posted by manofsparrow

Never heard of that camp.

Neither have I...





...but now I do. ^^

[LordShaft]

Originally Posted by Colby

I think Hell is a place for Satan Worshipers and those who KNOW he exists and reject him. Basically those who hold scorn for him, or don't want him or w/e. Not like Paul or Atheists who just don't know.

The Satanic Bible

Seriously.

[Colby]

Originally Posted by LordShaft

The Satanic Bible

Seriously.

Eww, I refuse to read **** like that. Taints your mind, even if you're not a believer, that kind of **** is just weird.

[Kanayo]

You do have to keep in mind different churches focus on different things. There aren't really much christians nowadays that go around telling people they'll go to hell if they don't accept Jesus. Instead most of them focus on how christianity can "help" you.

[shintenzu]

Originally Posted by Paul

So are you saying that people who do not accept Jesus will not burn in hell? Because if that's not what you're saying, I don't think it matters how many times it was mentioned or who preaches it. And if you're saying that we will not burn in hell for not accepting Jesus, could you point out where the bible corrects itself?

Jesus said I am the only way, believe in me and have everlasting life. He never said "if you DONT believe in me you will burn". Translate that as you will.

Okay, so you stopped telling people your beliefs and why you believe it because they always called you a bible thumper and whatnot. Well what do you think happens to an atheist who shares his belief with christians? Do you think the situation is that one-sided?

I simply dont care anymore really... Even if it turns out I am correct, why the hell should I care more about that person if they dont want to be cared about. I help those who SEEK it, I wont hand it on a silver platter to someone who would chuck it aside... Just not worth my time. People whine about Christians being too active with their faiths, so maybe you would be happier if we all took a pecimistic attitude towards it and just stopped caring. Maybe people would whine less... or wait no they would call us hypocrits for not following our own faith... Double ended sword of hypocrisy

This isn't like Galileo at all(who, ironically, was heavily opressed by the church). Galileo had groundbreaking evidence and discoveries. Theories that made sense, with facts to back them up. The most Christians have these days is "Just believe". Hardly a worthy of being mentioned in the same breath.

First Galileo's theory was back up by the bible which is also ironic, it simply shows the ignorance of many Christians. Galileo's evidence no matter how groundbreaking it was is to no effect because despite how much he could support it, if the foudational principles are different it doesnt matter. I could prove the existance of a creator simply with the laws of causality, common sense, as well as the laws of thermodynamics. The big bang theory which is evolutions version of initial creation STARKLY contrasts the laws of thermodynamics, but because the foundation is different, all of the evidence is all for nothing. I definitely see it as the same.

For instance, if someone truely believes we are stuck in some sort of matrix, no matter how much scientific evidence you add to a spicific theory, in the end its all an illusion to the person.

I mean, and to claim that Christianity is in any way being mistreated is a bolllld ****ing statement. Christianity has caused MILLIONS upon millions of deaths throughout history. How many christians are treated that way because they believe in a God? And I know, I know, the response is always "The acts of one christian don't stand for every one of them". Okay well that's one hundred percent true. But there are an awful lot of ****ed up people in the history of this religion. We're not talking about one man, we're talking abuot a good bit of history here.

Christianity is the the older brother that gets despised by his younger siblings for being too authoritative when his motive was to keep em outta trouble (dont care if it sounds condesending.. most arguements do). I hate it when people blame deaths on Christianity when it is the individual's selfish motive that MANIPULATES others to do his bidding using Christianity as the excuse. If I go around pinning every murder commited by an athiest or agnostic TO their belief you would all whine saying that is a logical fallicy.

IF a faith tells you to love your brother, love your enemy, turn the other cheek, feed the hungry, cloth the poor, take care of the widows.... Yet some dum sh1t claims he accepts that very same faith and KILLs people so that they accept it... Am I the only person with half the amount of logic neccesary to get that it was the INDIVIDUAL and not the faith to blame? Or are we seriously just digging ammo against Christians... I dont care if the magority (which it wasn't) did this, it still is contrary to the faith they claim to have thus cannot their actions cannot be directly affiliated with the faith.

If a buddhist goes around killing all that doesnt accept his faith, his actions would NOT be tied to his faith, because we all know buddhism is a fairly peaceful religion. However if there was one point where thousands of buddhist went on a crazy kong fu killing spree kiling hundreds of thousands of non buddhists, we wouldn't hear the end of how buddhism caused soo many deaths, and the small insignificant detail of Buddhism NOT supporting these actions would be totally ignored.

[An Amateur]

Please, please tell me your not a supporter of so called creation "science".

Originally Posted by shintenzu

First Galileo's theory was back up by the bible which is also ironic it simply shows the ignorance of many Christians.

Thats why he spent most of his life imprisoned in his own home thanks to the church?

Galileo provided evidence that contradicted the churches teachings. Only at a later date did the church try to put a spin on it so that it did not contradict their teachings. This is something the church has done since its founding on many issues.

I could prove the existance of a creator simply with the laws of causality, common sense, as well as the laws of thermodynamics.

Then do so now please.

The big bang theory which is evolutions version of initial creation STARKLY contrasts the laws of thermodynamics

WRONG!!! Your trying to argue your case in a scientific light using basic knowledge of science. And your falling flat on your face.

Take a look: "Part 3 problems and Objections a) first law of thermo dynamics" Evidence for the Big Bang

Always research your facts!