Perspective and Reality.

[Sinjihn]

It's been talked about many times before on this forum, but I LIKE TALKInG ABOUT IT.

Basically heres the question.

If a tree falls down, and noone is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

NO.

Why? Sound is a definition of what HUMANS hear. If you did not hear it, sound did not exist. Everything we know, is definition, by people who came before us, or who will come to define things we have not experienced, only to find out they exist. But if you have never heard, or never will hear of something, never sensed or sense it with any of your 5/6 senses, it does not exist. Because each and every indvidual lives within their reality.

For example, if everyone in the world forgot about one person, forgot all physical evidence, and completely wiped that person out of memory, and never remembered them again, that person would cease to exist. But existing is something defined by your reality, so then something can only exist when you have heard of it. If i never heard of Gunz, it would not exist, because I, an individual, living in my own reality, have never sensed it in anyway.

At least, do you think this way?
Discuss.

[Jon88]

Originally Posted by Sinjihn

It's been talked about many times before on this forum, but I LIKE TALKInG ABOUT IT.

Basically heres the question.

If a tree falls down, and noone is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

NO.

Why? Sound is a definition of what HUMANS hear. If you did not hear it, sound did not exist.

If you define sound as what humans can here, then it will make no sound, but that is not the definition I use for sound. Sound is a vibration (energy) traveling through a medium. And with that definition the tree does make a sound.

I usually say that tree did not make a "crackling" sound, because adjectives describing sounds are dependent on the observer.

[shintenzu]

Originally Posted by Sinjihn

It's been talked about many times before on this forum, but I LIKE TALKInG ABOUT IT.

Basically heres the question.

If a tree falls down, and noone is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

NO.

Why? Sound is a definition of what HUMANS hear. If you did not hear it, sound did not exist. Everything we know, is definition, by people who came before us, or who will come to define things we have not experienced, only to find out they exist. But if you have never heard, or never will hear of something, never sensed or sense it with any of your 5/6 senses, it does not exist. Because each and every indvidual lives within their reality.

For example, if everyone in the world forgot about one person, forgot all physical evidence, and completely wiped that person out of memory, and never remembered them again, that person would cease to exist. But existing is something defined by your reality, so then something can only exist when you have heard of it. If i never heard of Gunz, it would not exist, because I, an individual, living in my own reality, have never sensed it in anyway.

At least, do you think this way?
Discuss.

Ill have to agree with John on this one. It would make a sounds because sound is not what HUMANS can hear, but the physical vibrations in the eye that coul cause a resonation which we percieve as sound. Using our common sense we can tell that the falling of a tree would produce the air resonations that causes sound so yes it would make a sound. Humans do not have to be in direct observation of a happning for it to have occured. If there is a single rare flower in which has never been seen smelt touched or felt, does it exist? Yes it does exist because regardless of a witness, an occurance cannot be undone or rendered unexisting. You put too much power on humans to determine the existance of an occurance. America will have still existed even if christopher columbus did not discover it. You still exist even if my sister has never seen you post, or met you in real life. Existance is based on EXISTANCE, not on observation.

By definition you could say eternity does not exist because we cannot witness it, however every single math problem would fail without the existance of infinity. There are infinite decimals between each number. Infinite number of decimals in the number PI, and e. The fact that we cannot physically count all of them does not render it unexisting. This type of thinking is why people though the earth was flat, and the same type of thinking will fall on its face when ever trying to explain the unexplained.

[slingblader]

the point isn't the conceptual. Pi DOESN'T exist. Can you tell me what it is? Can you show it to me? It's a concept, one that can be manipulated, but not "comprehended." The basic ideal is that you are limited to the world which you are capable of defining. For all we know there could be a giant projector playing out our lives now, but not being able to percieve that, it doesn't exist. Our personal worlds continue unaffected by inconceivable (that is, directly) intrusions.

[Steelste]

Dog whistles, we cannot hear it.

But dogs can.

Not sound?

[fgjk]

Originally Posted by Steelste

Dog whistles, we cannot hear it.

But dogs can.

Not sound?

Ah, for a second I though you were saying dogs could whistle...

[Chokichi]

Originally Posted by Sinjihn

It's been talked about many times before on this forum, but I LIKE TALKInG ABOUT IT.

Basically heres the question.

If a tree falls down, and noone is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

NO.

Why? Sound is a definition of what HUMANS hear. If you did not hear it, sound did not exist. Everything we know, is definition, by people who came before us, or who will come to define things we have not experienced, only to find out they exist. But if you have never heard, or never will hear of something, never sensed or sense it with any of your 5/6 senses, it does not exist. Because each and every indvidual lives within their reality.

For example, if everyone in the world forgot about one person, forgot all physical evidence, and completely wiped that person out of memory, and never remembered them again, that person would cease to exist. But existing is something defined by your reality, so then something can only exist when you have heard of it. If i never heard of Gunz, it would not exist, because I, an individual, living in my own reality, have never sensed it in anyway.

At least, do you think this way?
Discuss.

i'm sorry but i fail to see any logic in your thinking towards this topic -_-..

If i murdered someone but nobody saw it ... i therefore did not murder them?

If a tree falls down it still makes a sound, a vibration even if it wasn't recieved by human ears, we could still record it with a tape recorder therefore it does exist.

If you never knew about gunz it didn't exist to you only but it still in history existed to 15k+ people.

[slingblader]

It's not the idea that YOU don't hear it or w/e, it's the idea that things that CAN'T be heard don't "exist." And they really don't, in terms of any psychologist you spoke to.

[Sinjihn]

Listen.

Sound is vibrations blah blah blah but its only SOUND when WE HEAR IT. If we never heard anything in our entire lives, would sound exist? No.

But im going further and saying anything YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL dont sense through sight taste touch hear blah blah 6th sense, doesnt exist, because each person has a different reality.




Every perspective sense object,(Sound, taste, sight, etc) only is, because HUMANS as a race can "feel" them.
Let's say on some planet, they have 4d brains, and therefore can move in and out of time like its 2nd nature. Therefore, they have a sense of time, something that we don't have, and will never experience, so it doesn't exist. The idea itself can exist, but with having no prior knowledge to lead up to that conclusion, having not sensed it in a literal or subconcious way, it doesn't exist.

Therefore if a dogwhistle is something we can't hear, but other people have heard and you have heard of other people hearing it, it DOES exist, but do you even know it TRULY exists? You have to rely on the validity of other people's points, but that is a different subject.
The point is, if noone could hear dogwhistles, or see them, or touch them, or sense them, or taste them, they would not exist. But since you can see them and touch them, and you can faintly hear them, and you notice a reaction of dogs whenever you blow it, the sound does exist because you have sensed it in some way.

Understand now?

[Jon88]

Originally Posted by Sinjihn

Listen.

Sound is vibrations blah blah blah but its only SOUND when WE HEAR IT. If we never heard anything in our entire lives, would sound exist? No.

If we were unable to 'hear' things, perhaps the label: "sound" would not exist, but those vibrations would still exist. Eventually our species would (may) define those vibrations as "something".

Let's say on some planet, they have 4d brains, and therefore can move in and out of time like its 2nd nature. Therefore, they have a sense of time, something that we don't have, and will never experience, so it doesn't exist. The idea itself can exist, but with having no prior knowledge to lead up to that conclusion, having not sensed it in a literal or subconcious way, it doesn't exist.

Times does not exist? How then do you reference it? Time is a measurement, like length, hight, distance, etc. Take two runners in a race. Often one runner finishes BEFORE the other. This is of course because that runner traveled over a distance faster than the other. We decided however to create a third variable to describe the delay between two points. It took one runner 1 minute to finish, while it took the other runner 1.5 minutes to finish.

Now as for the aliens with 4d brains and being able to move in and out of time... well that's just crazy talk, considering what time really is.

The point is, if noone could hear dogwhistles, or see them, or touch them, or sense them, or taste them, they would not exist. But since you can see them and touch them, and you can faintly hear them, and you notice a reaction of dogs whenever you blow it, the sound does exist because you have sensed it in some way.

If something does not exist it does not exist; if it does exist, it exists. If something exists that we don't know about, it is unknown. -simple?

[Mr.Lucifer]

There are sounds we can't hear. Those who work with it call it sound even if the human doesn't hear it. The definition of sound is as what Jon88 said. At least for me, and it's the standard for scientists. You can define it different than everyone else if you wish, but that's your own choice.

I agree with you, everyone have a different reality. What we se isn't what everyone else sees. You decide yourself if you define sound as what you can hear or what the general opinion is. Who's going to stop you?

[Sinjihn]

UGH.

YOU GUYS ARE NOT GETTING IT.

Sound is perspective. We know there are sounds that we can't hear, but how do we truly know they exist? We never heard them, nor will we ever. But since the idea exists, since we SENSE IT in some way, as an idea, it DOES EXIST.

Therefore, if a treefalls and noone hears it, it makes a sound, but the sound never existed, because existence is something that is defined by humans, anything we percieve.

If you came to the tree minutes later, you could speculate it made a sound, etc, but you never heard it, so in all essence, it did exist, but it didnt.

Or let's say you never went to the tree. Did that particular tree even exist? If you never sense something ever in your entire life, in any way shape or form, it doesnt exist, because you cannot speculate over things you have not experienced.

Therefore if Indians had never seen white Euros, if they had never, EVER or ever did come to America, they would not exist to the indians. Sure they could SPECULATE about it, think about it, but without prior information and enough evidence to speculate on, it can't exist, because it will never be seen.


So technically, if everyone in the world forgot about some object, and never did anything about it, erased every sense of it from memory, it would cease to exist. Let's take into example the color red. If everyone in the world's vision was altered so that we could not see anything that reflected red light, the color would cease to exist. You cannot speculate about it, you cannot think about it, it just is.
Therefore, you cannot speculate about things you haven't have some sort of link to with an experience or a similar idea or thought or event.


Do you get me NOW?
Or do I have to go further?

[Sinjihn]

Originally Posted by Jon88

If we were unable to 'hear' things, perhaps the label: "sound" would not exist, but those vibrations would still exist. Eventually our species would (may) define those vibrations as "something".



Times does not exist? How then do you reference it? Time is a measurement, like length, hight, distance, etc. Take two runners in a race. Often one runner finishes BEFORE the other. This is of course because that runner traveled over a distance faster than the other. We decided however to create a third variable to describe the delay between two points. It took one runner 1 minute to finish, while it took the other runner 1.5 minutes to finish.

Now as for the aliens with 4d brains and being able to move in and out of time... well that's just crazy talk, considering what time really is.



If something does not exist it does not exist; if it does exist, it exists. If something exists that we don't know about, it is unknown. -simple?

WHAT IM SAYING IS that everything that is defined in our reality can only exist if WE AS AN INDIVIDUAL SEE IT. I dont even know if the war in Iraq is real, i only hear about it, see images of it on tv, but i have never experienced it first hand. So it exists. But lets say i never heard about it, EVER, seen any pictures, etc. The war would exist to someone that has seen it/heard of it, but since I live in MY REALITY where everything is defined by MY senses and MY subconcious, it would not exist.

And since my reality is the only one that matters, because i cant jump into someone elses, anything that happens in mine, is, and ever will be.
Therefore the war in iraq does not exist if i never heard of it, seen it, touched, etc, or ever will.

[Mr.Lucifer]

Originally Posted by Sinjihn

UGH.

YOU GUYS ARE NOT GETTING IT.

Sound is perspective. We know there are sounds that we can't hear, but how do we truly know they exist? We never heard them, nor will we ever. But since the idea exists, since we SENSE IT in some way, as an idea, it DOES EXIST.

Therefore, if a treefalls and noone hears it, it makes a sound, but the sound never existed, because existence is something that is defined by humans, anything we percieve.

The human didn't percieve it, but it did happen. The human don't know if it happened. It's in the "absolute" reality but not in the human reality. Whether or not reality is only the human reality or the reality in all is purely subjective.

Butterfly effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Something similiar can also be assumed of sound. One falling tree puts a bird slightly off and 10 minutes later it crashes into a window and makes a sound heard by those inside. Did the tree make a sound then?

[ChunkyGerbil]

Originally Posted by Sinjihn

Therefore if Indians had never seen white Euros, if they had never, EVER or ever did come to America, they would not exist to the indians. Sure they could SPECULATE about it, think about it, but without prior information and enough evidence to speculate on, it can't exist, because it will never be seen.

So you're saying that the "Euros" don't exist to themselfs? It doesn't matter if the Indians have never had an experience with the Euros or even speculate the fact that some other beings may exist. They DO exist; they are an object on the earth, hands down.